The Voy Cast
Join TNG fans Audrey & Terri in the Delta Quadrant as they watch Star Trek Voyager for the first time!
The Voy Cast
Tuvix
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Janeway is a murderer
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Hey listeners, I'm your co-host Audrey, and I'm your co-host Terry. Welcome to the Voicast, your home in the Delta Quadrant for all things Star Trek Voyager. A mission that twisted two lives into one. A new mind and heartbeat begun. He begged them in fear, but none chose to hear. While Jane Lee killed him, her duty undone. Harry, today we're watching season two, episode 24-2 that uh little-known episode. Really? Everyone should know this.
SPEAKER_01Everyone should know.
SPEAKER_03I think it is the most infamous episode. Okay. I don't know. I don't know anything. This is the one episode that our friend Chris was like. Oh, you're watching Voyager? Jane White's a murderer.
SPEAKER_01Oh. It's based off of just one episode that he said. I mean, she is. Yeah, and she did.
SPEAKER_03Definitely this episode. This yeah. I'm actually still processing, I think. I don't blame you. The ending was chilling. Like, I I I understand why it was a no-win scenario, but impossible choice. The way it ended was so dark. The like. The way they wrote it and acted it, where Jane Wii was so cold and basically so, so cold.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she was like, I'm a monster now. I've accepted it.
SPEAKER_03I was very chilling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the acting, um, by um Tom Wright, who plays Two Bags. I was wondering who played him was so good. Like the emotion he displayed throughout the episode and especially at the end, like the glares of desperation. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Not just not even just the actor, but like the script was really well written to take the nuances of characters and combine them. The director, I'm sure, had all it. It was really well done in that way until the end.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I I actually think this is the best episode of Voyager so far. Really? I don't know if it's my favorite, but it is the best episode, in my opinion, so far.
SPEAKER_02I can see that. It has a weight to it.
SPEAKER_03It just feels, and again, I think Tom Wright is just so good at channeling this character. Uh it just there's so much weight. Yeah. Um Kess is so struggling the whole time.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, what a just dark place to be. And the way that she breaks down with Jane Way is just like so real.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. She's like so vulnerable. She's like, I was asked by Tuvix to defend him to you, and I can't. I want.
SPEAKER_02I want Nelix there. I want Nelix that.
SPEAKER_03For some reason, I don't, I would certainly prefer Tuvix, but yeah, it's one of those like, hey, I think that Nelix is out of your league a little bit. Like maybe you should settle. Uh I love every time that Cass has like a leading role in an episode, I feel like she has opportunities to do her like sultry voice.
SPEAKER_04Which I love.
SPEAKER_03She has a few of those moments.
SPEAKER_04I didn't notice them.
SPEAKER_03This episode was directed by Cliff Bowl, and it's directed a few episodes. The story is by Andrew Shepard Price and Mark Gaberman. And the teleplay is by Kenneth Biller, who we all know and love. After a teleporter, after a transporter malfunction, T Vok and Nelix are merged into a single being, and in the search for a way to restore them to their original forms, a moral dilemma is faced as the new being does not want to be murdered, killed, eliminated.
SPEAKER_02I imagine that.
SPEAKER_03Crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, wanting to live.
SPEAKER_03I wonder, like, we don't really get resolution at the end of the episode where Janewee, like, okay, welcome back, and then walks out. And do do those two have memories?
SPEAKER_02Right. Do they remember being two picks?
SPEAKER_03Because they have their old memories. Right. So they must have their new memories like split.
SPEAKER_02It would make sense that they would still have those memories. But yeah, I would love to hear a conversation about that.
SPEAKER_03Uh, I listened to the Delta Flyers podcast uh episode for this. And one thing they noted that I hadn't like I hadn't noticed, but I went back to look at was the uniform that Tuvix is wearing is awesome. It is like extra flourishy and it has a little different collar and it's got a few little flourishes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, even combined Neelix's outfits with Tuvox. I didn't notice that.
SPEAKER_03Robbie McNeil was like, I don't know if that's how science works.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay, yeah, that sounds like how I feel about the substance.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I guess it's how transporter physics happened to work. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like would it merge non non-living material? No.
SPEAKER_02No. Well, when and when they split them back apart, they're both wearing the same uniform. Yeah. Just created another one.
SPEAKER_03We can't just have like naked crew members.
SPEAKER_02Sure. It's nice to be able to do it. But if it had merged the clothing, it could have unmerged it and they could have worn different things. I don't like I would love to be a fly on the wall during those discussions of like, okay, but what should they be wearing when they are fliffed?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what a creative like job by wardrobe.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um yeah, that is kind of funny though. It's like, oh, like even their hair wouldn't have merged because it's not living. Sure. So they would just be like what what would happen? Would they just be, they would really they would just be naked. Tuvix would be naked, uh standing there, and all the hair and the uniform and everything would just the uniforms, they would just be like not transported or like on the ground. Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, okay. Well, if we're gonna dig into the science of this, the um we have uh Neil deGrasse Tyson on the line. They they mention a life form that is able to procreate this way where it merges with a separate life form and and forms a third new entity. I assumed the life form they were talking about is fictional.
SPEAKER_04But in that supposition how is that reproduction? It's more like assimilation almost.
SPEAKER_03It is kind of like assimilation. Uh the Andorian amoeba is of course a unicellular amoeba native to Andorria. Of course. Um it reproduced uh symbiogenetically, meaning it merged with other single-celled organisms. Um, if we dive into symbiogenesis, it is a rare reproductive process. But real process. Uh I'm gonna look it up on Google. It is an evolutionary mechanism where two distinct organisms merge permanently to form a new more complex organism, but typically through long-term endosymbiosis. This theory was popularized by Lynn Margulis and explained that eukaryotic organelles like mitochondria and chloroplasts originated from free living prokaryotes bacteria engulfed by or integrated into other cells.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03So it's an evolutionary theory.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Okay. So this is in fact evolution. It felt like it was phrased as reproduction or posited as reproduction in the It was.
SPEAKER_03So the actual where the writers got it from is an evolutionary theory. What they turned it into for Star Trek is a reproductive, a fictional reproductive process.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because to me, like if you're reproducing, then whatever the byproduct is of that would be a child or an undeveloped form.
SPEAKER_03Well, obviously it'd be some salamander babies.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yes. Man.
SPEAKER_03But we're not there yet in evolution.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. I'm sure it's coming. Alright. This episode starts um where they decided to send Nelix and Tuvok down to a planet to look for a flower that might be real nutritious and good for food.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they're looking for food. And why did they why were these two chosen?
SPEAKER_02I'm I thought it made sense because Nelix is probably the one that knows of of the flower's existence. And since it is technically an orchid, and that is Tuvok's little hobby. Oh, you're right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that is his hobby. They were just like, yeah, okay, the two of you. That's fair. Because I was like.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I would never choose to combine the two of those on a mission.
SPEAKER_03No, but like Nelux, his like Yeah, he likes to be an expert of food, but his food is terrible. Like it's ruthlessly criticized.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03So it's like at least send someone else.
SPEAKER_02I don't think it matters how this flower tastes at this point. They just need to eat it.
SPEAKER_03Can't they just like mash up any amount of carbon and just turn it into food?
SPEAKER_02But you need more than carbon. Maybe it's as uh annoying as usual. She's singing. He's singing a um funeral derge.
SPEAKER_03Not for the first time.
SPEAKER_02A Vulcan funeral dirge. Um because it's the happiest song he could find that was Vulcan. So that's fun.
SPEAKER_03He says that Tuvok is being especially Tuvakian.
SPEAKER_02And he does seem especially annoyed and shut down around Nelix. And I get that.
SPEAKER_03I thought it was interesting that Nelix and Tuvok were both being kind of exhibiting exaggerated characteristics, yeah. Personal personality characteristics, just ahead of this event.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Just so like going into it, your mind would be looking for the difference.
SPEAKER_02Right. The two traits. Yeah. Definitely a conscious choice there. And also ref be as they highlighted the difference in the two, it helped to later highlight how when they were combined, they kind of like compensated for each other's and neutralized, yeah, balanced stuff. Yeah. Honestly, Tuvix was like a better version of both of them. Tuvix was awesome. Just one, just one person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Tuvix was very quickly becoming popular with the rest of the crew.
SPEAKER_02How could he not? He had the best traits of both of them.
SPEAKER_03When a flower that they have sampled, it turns out that it has these um traits, these uh symbiogenetic traits that cause Nelix and T-Vok to merge. Yeah, their DNA just gets sucked together. Like equally merged together. Yep. And the fine, fine weave of their modern uniforms is also merged. Don't tell me where the extra mask goes, I'm not sure. Um, but that all gets merged into uh one being, and it's super, super awkward when he appears on the Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02And they don't Kim's there, right? Yes, Kim is there with some other person. He's like, oh shit, did I do something? Yeah, he's like, there's only one person being beamed aboard, and Kim's like, is it Two Box or Nealik? And he's like, uh, it's neither. So I feel like the initial reaction to that is like someone was like traitor. Yeah, intruder.
SPEAKER_03Intruder.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, that's how Janeway treats it. She's like, Who are you? Basically.
SPEAKER_02Which is fair. We get we get a like very round-headed, rigid, Vulcan-looking person that is themed aboard.
SPEAKER_03Oh, the hair is wild too. It's like a weird, scraggly, floofy thing. Yes. With like a almost a ponytail. I will say, like, Neelix's hair is the worst thing ever. Yeah. And to see it somehow even worse was difficult for me. I agree. That was uncomfortable. It's like they took, like, you know, those spider webs, the fake spider webs for Halloween that you get at the dollar store. They like took some of that and just kind of stretched it out. And it's just kind of just hung and hungry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like lots of hairspray, so it would like stay rigid enough.
SPEAKER_02It's like cotton candy. Yeah. It wasn't it was bad hairdo. It was it was yucky. Um this being that appears, um, knows that he is both Tuvok and Nelix, which is fantastic. And he says that the logical thing for him to do would be to go to sick bay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He's like, I think the logical thing would be so he goes to sick bay, and the doctor is flummoxed. Perhaps I feel like I had to use that word at some point.
SPEAKER_02That's a very good word to use in this particular situation. The doctors determined they have been merged on a genetic level. And there is a third genetic pattern in there that is plant-based.
SPEAKER_03Yes. It's the orchid. Uh Kess is not having fun at all with any of this. Of course not.
SPEAKER_02Like her boyfriend has just been merged with someone else. What are you even like it's obviously not your boyfriend anymore. This is a new person, but it has he has all the memories of them together.
SPEAKER_03That's so wild. It's it's really interesting. And they are now like the single consciousness personality. Uh he decides um to name himself. He's like, maybe uh Nevock. Not that one. Uh Nevock sounds like um shoe brand. Or like a a like a knee brace. Yeah. Right? So he settles on tubex and he calls Kess sweeting, which was gross. In any context.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say that's what Neelix calls her, apparently. But yeah, of course, she was kind of freaked out by that. Um, Janeway also does not look excited about this.
SPEAKER_03She's like she has zero excitement. No, the entire at some point in the episode, she's like, oh well, he seems to be, you know, like I I don't mind him, but I don't think she's okay with it.
SPEAKER_02No, not at all. It's and it's interesting because it this is they've brought a stranger on board, which they've done before with Neelix and Kiss, and really welcomed them. And Janeway's been really positive about it. But this particular stranger means the loss of her closest advisor and one that knows her best. And also Neelix, which I don't know that she cared about that much.
SPEAKER_03But I didn't think she did, but then later in the episode, when she's talking to Kess, or maybe it's Chicote, she's like, I've grown to be very fond of Mr. Nelix. Yeah. I was like, that's cool. I don't know. I don't think I'm quite there.
SPEAKER_02I feel like that's when you're when you're talking to your friend about their significant other that you don't really like, but the relationship's going really good, and you're just like, yeah, I've grown fond of him. I can I can accept that he is around.
SPEAKER_03It was well, yeah, it was more like um how you talk to you talk about a colleague that you don't like to your boss. Yes. You can't badmouth them. I've grown really fond of Alice. I've found ways to work with them. Or Ashley. Why is it always the like A names? The other A names are the women that I've hated working with most. Wow. There can only be one. I think that's it.
SPEAKER_02Well, you say you just gotta murder them. Easy.
SPEAKER_03Take a page out of Janeway's book. I I've been doing that more and more in life. Murdering people. Taking Janeway's advice. Let's keep it big. So uh yeah. Basically, Mr. Tuvix is getting a little restless. Um, they figure out the whole thing with um the symbiogenesis, and they're they don't know a way right now to separate them. They just know what caused this, and they send uh they send Balana and uh Tom down to the planet to get samples in a shuttle this time. In a shuttle, and they they do. Transport uh some samples up together just to confirm their findings. Um, but yeah, they they go down on a shuttle, they're not taking any chances with a uh tamana or a balom.
SPEAKER_02No, I see why they didn't merge them. That's not going to work. Um They keep yeah, they keep testing and they're trying to like so they they send these flowers up, they transport them together with some other flowers to create hybrids. So they're able to replicate this. Yes, this is what's happening, and the doctor keeps trying to separate them and it just ends up killing the flower.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's like, Well, I've tried it several times, and it's just this black, crispy, and he says it's complete cellular collapse. Bad. And I was like, what does this make me think of? There's like a science fiction movie where there's cellular collapse. And I think it was like probably like a um X-Men movie. Oh, where like one of the they like create maybe it's the second one, first one or second one. Oh, I thought it was like where they create like they turn the senator into a mutant, and then he like his cells just collapse and turns into like water or something. Whew. Right. Deep cut to the early, early, early, literally the year 2000. So yeah, that's it's been a that's how we people think.
SPEAKER_02So yes, Tuttic is restless and he wants to resume his tactical post, but Janeway is like, I don't even know who the fuck you are.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she's absolutely not. She's like, maybe we start you out somewhere, not on the bridge. Yeah. Like in the galley. Yeah, I don't oh, this scene was awesome. So he walks into the galley, and none other than Son Hogan from engineering is in the galley with like 10 other doofuses. Yeah. And they're all kind of like scrambling around burning stuff, and food is randomly being tossed around, and they have not figured out how to do this. They clearly have been spoiled by the modern technology and have never cooked a meal ever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is exactly how it feels. It's could it's complete chaos. And Tuvix walks in and just like takes control. It's like everyone out of my kitchen. It was a very like Neelix thing to do, but done in a Tuvok fashion, right?
SPEAKER_03Right, but then but then the Tuvok side comes out again because after he makes a bunch of food, he's like, I've never seen a more disorganized like kitchen.
SPEAKER_02I must organize the whole thing and clean it up. And it does, it looks so much better after he's done. But the um the doctor, it's funny because the only person that really seems to have a problem with Tuvix is the doctor. Um when he finally is done with all of his testing, he's basically like, Yeah, get Tuvix out of here because he has the worst traits of both Tuvoc and Nelix. And he says that he has abullions, which I meant to look up. Oh, that's yeah, I don't know what that is. Let me definition. An adjective describing someone who is cheerful, energetic, and overflowing with high spirited enthusiasm or excitement. Okay, so he was specifically talking about the neelix part of this person, and that is an excellent definition of neelix, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, that is your word of the day.
SPEAKER_03What was the word again?
SPEAKER_02Let me actually have AI pronounce it for me so that I'm not doing it wrong.
SPEAKER_04Pronunciation. A bullient. Well, learn something new every day.
SPEAKER_03That's the word of the week. Uh the next morning. Uh so the whole like time, like Tuvux is slowly becoming more a part of the crew. Like he he just goes to work on some things uh that TuVac would normally be doing, and uh he's having conversations with the crew, and the crew is starting to like try and adjust to all of this.
SPEAKER_02And he he's able to look at things in a different light as well. They talk about TuVix like fixed something that Tuvox said would take 10 days to fix, and I assume that's just because he had a different perspective in being half Nelex now, which is cool.
SPEAKER_03It's interesting to see Cass continue to try and grapple with all of this because she there is not like not even at the end. Like she just uh it's only been a few weeks.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And she she's struggling.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And in part because Tuvix obviously has all of Nelix's memories, obviously has Nelix's feeling towards her and is trying to be respectful of the fact that he is not the person that he has memories of and that she has memories of, but still is in love with her. And makes about Tuvak's wife. They do, yeah. Yeah, Kess is like, what about Tuvok's wife? And and I think Tuvok Tuv Tuvics has a good point that he's just like by the time we get back to Earth, or by the time the doctor figures out how to separate us, that may take the rest of your life, Kess. So basically, it felt like he was implying that he and Kess could be together for the short period of the rest of her life. And maybe then he would be unmerged and and Tuval could just go back to his wife, and it'd be fine.
SPEAKER_03It felt a little desperate, uh, but it did have emotional weight, kind of like like after or during a divorce or a breakup, you feel those emotions, maybe where you're like, well, what if this and what if that? And it's almost a little manipulative the way he's stating it. And I think Kess feels that, like she's very uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh, she's very clearly uncomfortable here. But he to me, it also just felt like he it's like to him, it's like being in a relationship where you were very much in love and suddenly the other person doesn't love you. And of course, from her frame of reference, it's because he's a different person.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02But to him, like it's like this relationship just completely ceased to exist, and that would be incredibly painful.
SPEAKER_03Very it's it's so well done though. Yeah. I feel like on some other episodes, it might have been awkward. Like the acting might have been cringy, but this felt super intense.
SPEAKER_02No, and they the pacing of this episode was definitely a lot slower than others, and I really was happy about that because they really were able to dig into like the personalities of the two and everyone's reaction to them. And Kess and Janeway especially um Kess like goes to Janeway about this, like looking for advice and kind of to confide in her. And they have like this really sweet meeting talking about both Tuvok and Nelix and their feelings, and it and Janeway is like in her nightgown, and it's just so her like pink, satin, satin Starfleet nightgown, Starfleet issue. And they're just being really, really real with each other and really open with each other, and Janeway even feels like really motherly in that moment. They like hug afterwards, and it's just it's so sweet.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it is. It's so and is that the that's when that's the one that started when Kess walked in crying because she was asked to defend, or is that later?
SPEAKER_02No, this was earlier, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so at this point, she's she does straight up talk to Janeway about like Tuvix obviously has feelings for her, she doesn't for him, um, but she's just really confused about all of that, and Janeway likens it to how the crew are trying to accept being separated from Earth.
SPEAKER_03Um and their partners and spouses.
SPEAKER_02And and Kess has now been separated from her partner and has to kind of deal with that. And Janeway sounds really emotional talking about how she thinks and dreams about Mark, and at the same time has to come to grasp with the fact that he may not be part of her life anymore.
SPEAKER_03Which is a window into the heartbreak that they're all still coping with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and now they've lost two of their very prominent figures on the ship. Janeway tells Kess to just give herself time, which is wonderful. But also, how long does Kess even have to live?
SPEAKER_03Let's be realistic. It's just so bizarre. Like I feel like if I was Kess, I'd be way more panicked about my short life.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely every fucking day.
SPEAKER_03But maybe that's like a genetic, like built-in that they that she doesn't sure that's just what her lifespan is. That's but I feel like being around other people that live to like age 90, 100, 120, who knows, in that era, but she's like, cool, seven years, and I'm a couple years in. Yeah. I feel like that had to have been real jealousy and pain and conflict, and I don't know. 100%. I I can't even imagine. So this is where we get a hairy clarinet solo, and there's still the guy next door banging on the walls.
SPEAKER_02Have we talked at all about whether or not the actor knew the clarinet before? I was like, I feel like that's him playing. Yeah, oh, he's definitely playing it, and he's certainly not bad at it. I was like, did he just learn enough to kind of pull this off? Or did he maybe know clarinet even before and they integrated it into his character?
SPEAKER_03He did not know how to play the clarinet in real life, but he worked with a coach to accurately simulate the fingering for the show.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay, so he wasn't actually playing it, though he was he he was playing, he just wasn't playing it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He he does not know how to play clarinet.
SPEAKER_04Well, he fooled us.
SPEAKER_03The he he gets a call from the doctor. And he seems really annoyed to have to stop playing clarinet to talk to the doctor. So he stands up, walks over to his laptop, and just hits the button.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And the doctor explains this theory about creating a radioisotope.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he wants to radioactively label one half of Tuvix's genome. Yeah. So that the transporter can separate the two individuals. Yeah. And he had some questions for Harry about how that might work with the transporter systems. And Harry's like, wait, what are you doing? Is this related to Tuvix? Like what's going on? He's like, Oh, I'll let you know when I figure it out. And he's like, I'm on my way.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Harry's like, I will be right there. So yeah, they're using this radioisotope to like basically flag one set of DNA so they can see it and pull it apart from the other.
SPEAKER_03He talks about how the same kind of method was used to track certain things in like the bloodstream back in, you know, the 2100s.
SPEAKER_04Sure. I um doesn't the transporter keep record of that or something?
SPEAKER_03Okay, I'll just I'll not dwell on that. I don't know. I feel like I feel like they could have also just been like, uh, well, we have your two transporter signatures already, so we're just gonna use those as the reference and pull you apart.
SPEAKER_02Just yeah, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like immediately.
SPEAKER_02Start transporting you, transport you back and just turn you into two.
SPEAKER_03And that would have been just as believable. Right. Like that would have been like sound Star Trek science.
SPEAKER_02We've also seen Balana pulled apart from the one person she is into her two separate DNA signatures.
SPEAKER_03You might have to say that again.
SPEAKER_02Now we've seen Belana pulled apart from one person into two separate people based on the two DNA types that she has. Yeah, like uh seen this stuff in the in in reverse. Now, to be fair, that was done by the phage people that we don't like. Whatever their name is.
SPEAKER_04Dipshits.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the by the dipshits. So which is debatable whether or not they have more advanced knowledge in medical science.
SPEAKER_03It's debatable because if they could do that, I feel like they could cure their age disease.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But they can pull one being apart into two different, so like it's uh it's a little frustrating.
SPEAKER_03Um uh yeah, so why couldn't they have done that? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, why couldn't why couldn't they have pulled those separate DNA signatures out and recreated these people and left two VIX as well and just had three people?
SPEAKER_03Right. I thought of that too on my bike ride today. I was like, couldn't they have just had three people on the delta pliers? Uh Robbie was like, it would have been nice at the end if like there had been a little bit more warmth. And like maybe at least we get a sense that they remember because that's never acknowledged, and like if they at least remember the memories, then Tuvix lives on a little bit and it's not so like desperately dark.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, he's kind of erased, but I get why in the end, Janeway had to be so cold in order to achieve what she did. And she had to just accept that fact. So I I feel like the focus was more on her and what she had did and how it was affecting her, and that's why we didn't get any more warmth from the rest of the characters. So I appreciated that.
SPEAKER_03So this is where the episode gets dark. So she attempts to convince Tu Vex to go through with this procedure. Yeah, and give up his life. Tuvix uh says no and is like, absolutely not. I have the will to live of two beings inside me.
SPEAKER_02He doesn't want to die. And I don't know who it was that said this, but I actually wrote it down. Is that someone said, at what point did he become an individual and not a transporter accident? So Tom Janeway says that. Was that Janeway?
SPEAKER_03When she's talking to Chicote.
SPEAKER_02And I mean, that's an excellent question, but I mean I think he was he was an individual the moment he appeared, it seems like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And unfortunately, uh he's only lived for two weeks, and the other, you know, Tuvok and Nelix have lived for much longer. So it feels like uh out of two bad decisions, they're obviously they also could use two crew member versus one. Absolutely. I mean it's kind of like it feels like a wartime decision, like when a general has to sacrifice troops, yep, knowingly kill people in the line of duty in order to achieve the overall goal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh yeah. Janeway continues to try and and convince Tuvix, but basically she says that this is her decision that she will she will make. And I was surprised by that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, take away all um agency from Tuvix.
SPEAKER_02And I feel like she has decided not to make this type of decision in other situations when we're facing like other um species and so forth. And to me, I mean, this is a new species. You just made first contact.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but it's it it is fully within her authority. Yeah. It's not like a um it's not like a first contact protocol.
SPEAKER_02Right. But it still just seemed kind of counter to what she's done in the past, but this is so different. You're right, she has to choose does she kill one person for two, or does she sacrifice the two for the one? And uh when you put it into simple terms of numbers, it it seems pretty obvious what you gotta do there.
SPEAKER_03My question is what do you think Picard would have done?
SPEAKER_04Right? I think Picard would have done the same thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but I actually think that he would have gone about it a little differently.
SPEAKER_02Yes. A little bit more diplomatically.
SPEAKER_03Maybe, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's what I I think I expected from Jane Wade, and at least was a little bit more diplomacy. So yeah, it really just surprised me. Her, like, this is my decision. You can agree with it or not, but I'm making you do it.
SPEAKER_03What I thought was interesting is yeah, thinking about what Picard would have done. He would have gathered all the senior staff together and had like an epic 10-minute meeting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and probably some kind of trial, honestly, where they all weighed the pros and cons.
SPEAKER_03Right. And he like this has happened so many times in Next Gen, where like there was an episode where Data has been communicating with uh a woman on another planet that is being destroyed, and um breaking the prime directive and contacting her, and Picard finds out and is. Calls like an all hands meeting and they debate the pros and cons of everything that's happening. And he's like, we do not get involved, even though they're all gonna die.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And he gets overruled essentially and can not even convinced, just everyone else is like, we cannot let these people die. And he's like, okay. I wonder if that would have happened, but it would have been the opposite. Everyone would have been like, I don't know if we can do this. And he would have been like, we're doing this, just like Janeway did. I just thought it was interesting that Janeway, she never does that. She just talks to like three of her senior staff individually at different times and then decides.
SPEAKER_02And there's a few, uh I think that she has a tendency to try and save other people from the decisions that she has to make. So she should them alone. Totally. But they're also um the people she was talk she was talking to were like some of the people that were closest to Tuvoc and Nelix. And so they had the loudest voices. And especially like Kess just like not being able to accept Tuvix and really wanting Nelix back, even though Kess is like the sweetest person who would never want to hurt anyone ever, she's she couldn't say, Yes, we should let Tuvix live.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's after that second meeting where she goes in crying and says, I want Nelix back. That's when Jane was like, All right, I have to decide.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I decide that I want Tuvok back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I I think a lot of that though is based on what she's seen from the crew. Because when she is kind of forced to make this announcement publicly, um yeah, on the bridge.
SPEAKER_03She walks out onto the bridge and says, uh Mr. Tuvix, I've made my decision, please report to Sick Bay. And he says he's like not erratic, like he's already done a lot of like very quiet trying to convince her after she said you know earlier that she would want him to do this. Uh he does start to like lose his cool and and like try to run. Basically, like goes to different crew members on the bridge. He's like he's trying to get them to speak up for him. Like, Mr. This, Mr. That, like you've had such great conversations and you know me, and you've played pool with me, uh, Chicote and Tom, like, please, Tom, like um, I love spending time with you. And Janeway orders security to come get him to the bridge and he runs and they grab him and pull him, drag him kicking and screaming off the bridge.
SPEAKER_02And I felt like it was I mean it that moment was so well acted because what what came across for me was that he's trying to get all these people to speak up for him, and none of them do. And it is They don't say anything.
SPEAKER_03They don't say anything, and no reassurance, no defense, nothing. And it's so eerie. It's eerie.
SPEAKER_02And I think that it very clearly conveyed that they weren't staying quiet because they respected Jane Way's decision or like her authority. It was because they also kind of thought that this was what should happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. They they all they're all like once, but yeah, they did want this reversed. It was Yuri because I was like, imagine if the Gustavo came in and grabbed you out of your workplace, and you were running to different colleagues begging for them to save your life, and none of them did anything. Yeah. You've had relationships with these people, you've slept with one of them, you've been friends with the other one, you've worked with these people for years, whatever. And that's just silence.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Very, very terrifying.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And that it just makes it more terrifying to me that it's the they aren't refraining out of fear. They're refraining out of like, hey, yeah, you're cool, but I really think you should be gone.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Shit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, brutal. And it probably would have been different if it had been years. Oh, absolutely. There would have been a much higher level of acceptance. So in Sikbay, the doctor actually refuses. Yeah. But he says, you know, I've got everything set up, but I can't do this myself because I cannot do harm.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03And so we see Janeway in like the most steely, dark, just cold. Like she is going through so much emotion right now and pain and anger and uh conflicts, but she has this like stone cold mask, and it's so well acted. She has to just stamp it out.
SPEAKER_02And I was surprised that she does the whole procedure herself. And she absolutely could have asked Kess or someone else to assist in this situation, but she doesn't. She shoulders the entire thing. She gives him a hypospray, I suppose, with the radioisotope. Yeah. She commands the computer, she does the sequence that pulls them apart.
SPEAKER_03And they there's like an animation where there's three uh transporter PLRs on the bed. And then there were two. And uh Neelix and Tuvok are there kind of a little confused. Um cast runs to Neelix immediately.
SPEAKER_04Janeway basically says um I don't know what she says exactly, like welcome, good to have you back.
SPEAKER_03Um turns and walks away. Yeah, without no emotion. She's not smiling, she doesn't seem happy. And the camera like follows, like she f she's like following the camera out into the hallway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And there's this amazing mix of like so much emotion under the surface of that steely face. It was super powerful seeing her walk away.
SPEAKER_03And then it ends. Yeah. And it was so dark, like so there was no reprieve from that emotion going into the end of the episode. Like I can I can envision everyone watching this episode and just like it fading off into credits and then commercial and people still just staring off, like with their jaws open.
SPEAKER_01That's what I did.
SPEAKER_02I just I'm like I said, I still don't think I've processed this. This is so what does this do to Janeway internally? Messes her up for forever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03She knows that this was the decision that had to be made, but and I think that helps, and it helps that like there's now two friends back. Yes, it's not like she murdered someone and then that was it, but right, she murdered someone to save two others.
SPEAKER_02So that that helps. Yeah. Well, it helped her make the decision, but I don't know that it's gonna help her deal with the emotions of making that decision.
SPEAKER_03Luckily, there are zero counselors on the Voyager. So they'll be able to use Chat GPT to work through their internal channels.
SPEAKER_02She'll just go to her creepy holodeck program with the evil children and yes, and the count.
SPEAKER_03Get laid. Get laid in the Victorian era. Man. What a what a lot I want a holodeck.
SPEAKER_04So you can get laid in the Victorian era?
SPEAKER_03Oh, you don't want you don't want to sure. I not. Uh-huh. Exactly. Uh, alright. Shall we see what's next? I guess. Even now I'm just like, man, what do we where do we go for me? No. Let's see if there's any deep dives.
SPEAKER_02Oh, there was one point where they were gonna go back down to the planet to get more plants to study. Um, but Tom says, well, we'll need to wait until morning because the weather on the planet gets really iffy at night. And I was just like, can you not just fly to the other side of the planet where it is still daytime?
SPEAKER_03Also, like, isn't your shuttle pretty advanced?
unknownSure.
SPEAKER_03Is the like weather gonna really be? I mean we fly fucking airplanes in weather.
SPEAKER_02Uh, okay, but wasn't it just the last episode where they were flying in some shit that took their shuttles down?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But that wasn't weather. That was like some sort of radiation.
SPEAKER_02I assume that weather is kind of an all-encompassing thing for like shit that might crash a shuttle.
SPEAKER_03Here's something interesting. Initially, the episode would have ended with Tuvics realizing through some event or the reaction of the crew that for the greater good he had to submit to the procedure of being split apart. No. For a while, that was the idea, says Ken Biller. But then we began to talk about it and consider what if he really wanted to survive and he doesn't want to die.
SPEAKER_02Which of course that's how he would feel. It was so much better this way. I don't know that I liked it more, but this was the better way to do it. So much more powerful.
SPEAKER_03It's just the whole episode was it felt the pacing felt really good and it was so interesting because it was so it was like a character study, like a moral study the whole the whole time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I loved that the actor playing Tuvics would say little tidbits of something that Tuvak would say or something that Nelix would say. He had mannerisms of Nelix. Um just did an amazing job kind of portraying both characters.
SPEAKER_03Okay, are you excited? We only have two episodes left in this season.
SPEAKER_04That's crazy. Right?
SPEAKER_03Ah, cool. We're almost to the season rap party. It'll be like your first week in Colombia. I'll have to come down for you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Alright. Episode 25. Voyager is forced to abandon Captain Janeway and Commander Chicote. They are infected with a terminal illness. Tuvok leads Voyager on a mission to find a cure.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Fun and interesting.
SPEAKER_03There's an image here of them in some cryotubes, it looks like, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm just wanna zoom in on Janeway's face.
SPEAKER_01Oh, she doesn't like being in there.
SPEAKER_00Three chin! She's recoiling so hard.
SPEAKER_03What else is great as Chicotes expression?
SPEAKER_00You know, can we for that? Just look it over. It's so genuine.
SPEAKER_02That's an excellent screen grab.
SPEAKER_03Whoever got that. So curious. Oh my god. I'm just so curious to see. Uh. Oh, how can I ever think of Janeway listening again? Oh man. Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to that. Hopefully a lighter episode, even though it does deal with terminal illness. I think anything is lighter after this week's episode. It's gotta be. That was a lot of infamous episodes in like a month. We had, or in like two months, we had we had uh clown episode. Yes, we had the Salam salamanders, we had clowns, we had um vex, and probably some other I feel like I'm forgetting. Yeah, maybe that was it.
SPEAKER_01That was a lot.
SPEAKER_02That's a lot to grapple with. Yeah, and Janeway like should have come away with from all of those with huge mental and emotional repercussions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm sure she did. The thing that the thing that bothers me a little bit that we don't get to see in Voyager is the I'm not saying it's it's perfect in next generation, but we I feel like Picard like really evolves and exhibits and like carries this stuff and it feeds into other episodes. And you see him like in his downtime struggling and trying to escape, and you see his like poor mental health or the way he like pushes his crew away and isolates himself. Yeah. I just I feel like we never get those as many of those intimate moments with Janeway where I'm like, I know you're so fucked up. I wanna see it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. I would love to just it because with the card it like starts to affect the way that he leads and the decisions that he makes. I I wanna I wanna see those repercussions.
SPEAKER_03Jane, that like Captain's holiday episode for Janeway. Yeah, she goes to the Delta Quadrant version of Rita and like experiences the heist and has to like, I don't know, some crazy shit. And that's next week on the boycott. We'll see you guys later. Bye.