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This week on The Voy Cast...CLOWNS! The clown is here, his circus is terrifying and he's just.getting.started...DUMDUM DUUUUMMMMM!
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Hey listeners, I'm Rick Co-host Audrey, and I'm your co-host Terry. Welcome to the Voicast, your home in the Delta Quadrant for All Things Star Trek Voyager. Today we are watching season two, Episode 23, Clowns. Or the Thought. No one can remember that it was called the Thought. I'm sure everyone No, it's called the Clown. Crew members are being held hostage by a virtual clown alien. Ah, virtual clown alien is uh sums it up. There is a lot of like background aerobics happening uh throughout the episode and literal fucking circuits. Yes. But like a baby's on cocaine circuits. Like lots of pantycodes. Yeah. Um circuits after party. There was a one guy with in like a full mask suit that was mostly like teeth. Like imagine the most exaggerated teachy cup at like the dollar store, and imagine that it came to life and was very hairy and big, uh, and had like a creepy voice. I'm still not sure why that character was there at all. The clown is extremely disturbing. He's played by a well-known actor, and I'm gonna find his name real, real soon.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, we talked about this at the end of the last episode. Because he was in Spinal Tap.
SPEAKER_04Yes, he was in Spinal Tap, and also, uh, better called Solomon. He is played by Michael McKean. And he does an awesome job portraying literally the creepiest shit ever. Yeah, ever. Like, really honestly, like, this. I thought it was a good episode, but I really, really wish I'd been, like, very high watching it.
SPEAKER_03Because I like kept getting distracted. I I can't imagine being high while watching this. I was stressed out and freaked out enough by it that I think that would have gone just very wrong.
SPEAKER_04Probably I'm here for it. A lot of like kudos to the d cast. There was a lot happening in this episode, like a lot of dancing and probably blocking and staging and whatever. Let's explain a little bit. This was uh written by Joe Minoski and Richard Gadas Gadas, G-A-D-A-S, I'm not sure. Uh, directed by Marvin B. Rush. I just don't even know where to begin.
SPEAKER_03I want to apologize to our listeners because we did pause this episode in the middle and then forget to pick it back up for maybe two months.
SPEAKER_04So, all right, guys. So, what happened is uh we we recorded a hot date. We record ahead of time and I think we were it was like two and a half ish, maybe more months ago, and uh yeah, I had to leave for a date and um somehow not somehow, Terry and I are just getting a little older and we forgot we forgot that um C now yet not saying you're C now, I'm just saying we both for somehow completely forgot that we did not finish recording the episode. Yeah, until I went re-edit it. That's pretty bad. So um, and then Terry texted me earlier this week, he's like, hey, so clowns episode dot dot dot didn't finish recording it. And I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_03And I don't want to watch it again.
SPEAKER_04I actually think I was like at Comic Con San Diego, Comic Con when you texted me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it would have been although honestly, the more time I have put between watching it and now, I have more appreciation for the episode and how it was actually like a masterpiece. Even though it made me feel some very uncomfortable things, I'm I'm beyond those emotions now.
SPEAKER_04Well, the acting is the acting, I think we commented on it when we first recorded is so good. It's in that it's so good. And the plot, it's such an interesting concept that they're playing with. Um so yeah, let's let's dive in. Here we go. Harry is playing clarinet in his quarters, and it's hilarious because you'd think they would have some soundproofing or whatever in 24th century starships, but uh apparently not. So there's like this ensign next door just like banging. He does not like the clarinet sounds next door. And Tom's there just like teasing him about it.
SPEAKER_03Harry says something about it's the fluid conduits, they conduct sounds or something, but I'm just like, yeah, no, this sorry, not buying that one. This ship has living quarters on it. It should be there, should be soundproofing. That's insane. Yeah. But it was just a fun little bit they could do with the clarinet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was just a fun, really fun little bit. This is the most positive part of the episode. Oh my god. I've been wanting to talk to you about this. What the fuck was that last scene?
SPEAKER_03I actually loved that scene. It was terrifying like Shakespearean. Um, because basically the clown is fear. So she was addressing him as like fear exists for one purpose to be conquered. And then he goes, I'm afraid.
SPEAKER_04And she's like, Yeah, and she says, and I know. I'm I know. It wasn't, I feel like she says it a few times as she like retreats. Yeah, it was terrifying.
SPEAKER_03It was super cool. I liked that. There were so many actually scenes in here that it was like, what the hell? What the fuck?
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_03What is that?
SPEAKER_04What is happening? Oh my God. What? Uh can't watch this in the middle of a stressful work day.
SPEAKER_03Right. This is a little much for me to handle. Tom and Harry get called to the bridge by Jakote.
SPEAKER_04They do.
SPEAKER_03They've found communication satellites in orbit around this planet, but they're not working.
SPEAKER_04You're like, why? Well, it looks like the planet was decimated by some sort of disaster, some sort of solar flare. So basically, the plot of that Nicolas Cage movie, the others. So imagine that happened. And then Voyager showed up. Um, and then you're like one of three remaining people on the planet, and you're way, way, way underground.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, their planet went into an ice age. It's starting to thaw now. That is where the name of the episode comes from. It's the only time we ever really talk about it. Which is why I say why why is the episode just not called Clowns?
SPEAKER_04Or or Fear or Circus or Or you maybe I don't know why uh their sensors didn't pick that up in the first place. They're like, oh, oh, they're underground.
SPEAKER_03I'm like, Yeah, let me search harder.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like since when do you only scan the like surface of an advanced and they weren't that far underground?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_04So Harry's like, oh, you're right. And then immediately later, uh T-Voc is like our sensors detect no dangerous uh weapon system. So I was like, are you sure about that? Maybe scan harder. Do you want to look underground, maybe, or anything else you might have missed?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, when they approach the planet, it actually activates a message from one of the inhabitants who is just like, hey, you've probably seen that our planet got real fucked up. We know, and a few of us survived, and we plan to revive ourselves when the planet starts to thaw again, and we'll take it from here. You guys can just keep going. You don't have to pay us any mind. Please don't like disturb what we're doing here. So we have to disturb what they're doing here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but literally it was that. Um, have you watched Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
SPEAKER_03Yes, and read it.
SPEAKER_04It was that scene where they go to like the planet in the hologram of the guys, like, welcome to our planet. It seems like you haven't turned away yet. Here are two nuclear missiles for you. Enjoy and thank you for coming. It's like agrafia or something. It was like that, but without the threat.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Janeway, I think, calls it like a cosmic do not disturb sign or something, which I love. It's like cool. I will uh ignore it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But it's a good thing we did because they were stuck in a hell of clowns and neon bright pantyhose. Yeah. And also walls and literally every object was a late 80s, early 90s fever dream.
SPEAKER_03So the obviously these people that survived have not revived yet. And so Janeway is concerned about why, because they should be. Um Harry's able to find that there are two of them that are on the surface but are dead. So they're like, oh, these people are dying instead of reviving. Now we have an excuse to mess with their shit.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. We made up uh some scans. And so they they find this room. It's like a subtrain in room. It's got like what are obviously like starship doors that they've like.
SPEAKER_03This is actually cargo bay. We don't go down to the Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04They pull them up to the cargo bay. Yeah, they be totally missable like stasis machine. I thought they were still like down. They went down for some reason. I missed that. And I was like, well, it kind of just looks like Voyager. So I'm a little confused.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, they were they were still on Voyager, but with a weird alien like pod setup for these people that had got into hyper sleep or whatever.
SPEAKER_04So this episode totally was recycled by Stargate uh SG won, by the way. That doesn't surprise me at all. But like minus the clowns. Um that would be an entirely different episode without the It was. It was a great, it's like one of the best episodes. They like get their memories wiped and they're working in a virtual penal colony. That's wild. Oh, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, okay, these people they scan their whole setup. Yes, two of them are dead. They find all their brains are connected and they theorize, like, oh, sure, if I was gonna wait out an ice age, then yeah, I would want some mental stimulation. So maybe they created an environment to like hang out in. Sure.
SPEAKER_04They sound advanced enough, they could have left.
SPEAKER_03Actually, they said there was evidence of warp and everything. So yes, they could have evacuated. No one ever talks about that. They analyze the system and they see that it's supposed to be showing them the current conditions on the planet, like periodically, and they should be able to choose to come out of stasis, and they have not done that. The two that have died have died from extreme neural trauma and heart failure. So that's kind of scary. And Harry's like, they died of fear.
SPEAKER_04Credits.
SPEAKER_03They got scared to death.
SPEAKER_04Um, they decide to go inside.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they they say they don't know how to remove the people from this whole machine without causing them neural trauma. Sure. And then Tuvok has the bright idea. He's like, well, we have two empty pods, we can just go in and talk to them and ask them what they want us to do. Should be fine. Sure. So they send Harry and Balana, which is a weird choice, in my opinion. I don't know if maybe they were selected for their technical brains and like they could understand what maybe the aliens were telling them in there. I don't know what why. Belana looks really claustrophobic though when they put her in that pod. She does. I think that's the actress. I would also be very they get like 15 minutes in there and then they're gonna they're gonna let them just come back. This is just them like checking it out, seeing what's going on. So this is this is when we see the madness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. We're walking around literally the most late 80s, 90s, like remember when like big stores like Walmart or Kmart or whatever had like little daycare centers built into them? You remember that from the 90s and 80s? Nope. I trust you. Maybe it was just a Salt Lake City thing. Um that could be. But they had like you'd sit there and it was just super 90s, like almost like a McDonald's play gym, but like less intense. Um, but like all the purples and blues and yellows and squares and triangles. That's what this was like. And it was filled with people in masks and uh tight 80s aerobic class clothing just uh doing weird things, their body. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03There's acrobats that are contorting, there's people like climbing shit, there's some fire dancers. And then you see the clown. He's all in gray, which makes him stand out incredibly.
SPEAKER_04And the actor does such a good job. He's so like loud and confident and like immediately defines the character. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03It was terrifying. I was impressed. And he immediately takes charge of the whole fucking circus that's happening here. And he grabs Harry and Balana and takes them to a guillotine and is gonna cut their heads off. I mean, normal, right? As you do. As you do. Um this point I was I was so overstimulated. This is when I texted you, just like, I don't know if I can handle this episode. Like, what the fuck is going on?
SPEAKER_04I started it last night and then I finished it at lunch, and it defined that entire 12-hour window um of my life. Uh I'm sorry. Yeah, that was I didn't know anything about this episode other than I had seen it referenced in lower decks.
SPEAKER_03The guillotine is bright pink, by the way. But bright pink kind of like symbolizes what's going on here. Has this knife? That's that weird scalpel.
SPEAKER_04It's so amazing. I was my favorite part of the whole episode, is they send the doctor in and he comes up behind him. He just appears behind him, and he like, he's like, I'm gonna cut your throat. And then he's like grabs the knife. He's like, That is not the proper way. Do you hold this scalpel? And I yes.
SPEAKER_03It was so funny. That scene, like up to that point, was the other scene where I was like, Oh my god, we need to talk about this. What the fuck? But yes, I felt so relieved when the doctor appeared and just nonchalantly was like, Oh, you're not doing that right. Yeah. Oh, I was like, thank God. The three aliens show up and tell Clown Guy that he probably shouldn't kill them because they'll just send more people, essentially. Um so he agrees to let one of them go and he lets Balana go. And we also learn through this whole thing that because Clown Guy is like part of he's not real, he's part of this system, this computer system, but he has access to their brains. So he does actually know everything about them and can access their greatest fears.
SPEAKER_04Which is pretty intense. He can also manipulate them. Like at some point, he turns Harry into a baby. Yeah. Oh, it's so cute. Little baby Harry with like the little Starfleet Insigna and like a little baby uniform.
SPEAKER_03Yes, but the baby was crying because it was being terrorized. It oh my god. I don't even remember what something set the clown off, and he just had to show like how all power helpful he was in this environment and just strip Harry of any confidence he'd ever had in his life. Yeah, it was really intense. I mean, they figure out that like he doesn't want any of the aliens to leave. The clown doesn't, because if they do, then his world will cease to exist. He basically needs their brains.
SPEAKER_04He he's like addicted to them. He he needs people to like feed off of and abuse, right? And they can no longer get Harry out, and they're this is where we have the scene where Janeway and Balana are like it literally was like out of a stand-up at a at like the the product comp the the technology company I used to work at. I've been in these conversations before.
SPEAKER_03At least the conversations you were in probably involved real world things. Sometimes there was a lot of made-up shit that was happening there.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. But that's what it reminded me of.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, of course. It yeah, it was very real, just they're spitballing and they need to get Harry back out, but they also want to get the three aliens out. This is like a terrible situation. They don't even know how terrible it is. Like this is while they're talking, is while when the clown is like trying to prove to Harry that he should be afraid and should stop thinking he's ever gonna get out of there. Yes. And besides turning him into a baby, he starts to recall this memory that Harry has that is one of the things he's most afraid of, where he took a tour with his parents of some like nuclear disaster site. Is that right? And they were in a hospital? Yeah, yeah, what was that? It was so and then he was like, and you wandered off from your parents, and you accidentally wandered into an operating room where you saw a little girl who was awake on the table about to be operated on. I was like, the what the f what? This happened to Harry in real life? Yeah, like wow. I I need I need more information about that. I think I was just in it, you know? Happened so quickly, and then all of a sudden Harry is on a stretcher being held down, and that is when this clown starts to come at him with a scalpel, just like he's the little girl that he saw in his memory. And I was just like, okay, hold on. They just canonically dropped this shit that happened to Harry that is beyond fucked up. I know. And I need to know more about it. I bet it never comes up again.
SPEAKER_04The actor's like, what happened to me as a child?
SPEAKER_03What? Because it sounds traumatic to me. Anyway, they're like, we need a way to talk to them that won't jeopardize someone's someone else's brain. So this is when the doctor shows up and saves Harry from dissection, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Okay, you started, you were the one editing when you discovered that we hadn't quite we stopped.
SPEAKER_03I think um I think we left off when we were discussing the horrible trauma that the clown was recalling for Harry of him being on an outing with his family and um Being in a hospital and seeing a young girl on the operating table and how badly that traumatized him and caused the clown to put him on an operating table and brandish a scalpel at him. And the whole time I'm just going, wait, hold on. This backstory about Harry is just beyond fucked. I would love to talk about that some more, but we don't. And the doctor shows up and kind of stops the the clown from plunging his scalpel into Harry. And it's just like, you're not holding that right. And that was a beautiful little breath of fresh air in this highly, highly stressful environment. I did listen to the Delta Flyers episode on the Thaw. And it was really interesting because they had one of the directors on, I think. His name was Marvin. And he was talking about how um how he played with kind of continuity, both both physically and emotionally, and time-wise in this episode. And so nothing was continuous and nothing made sense once they were inside the confines of this program. So I think it's fine if we are a little chaotic and don't have continuity in our episode because that was the whole vibe that he was going for.
SPEAKER_04Right. And also in just in recent recordings, we've started to move away from continuity quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02Very true.
SPEAKER_04It's more fun. Um this is when we see the whole episode, we see how the clown has torn down these poor humanoids that have been stuck in this nightmare.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the aliens.
SPEAKER_04And yeah, like fed off them. And he's kind of the genius of the acting is he kind of comes in as like, oh, no big deal. I'm just this like character here, a kind of um part of this world. And then you start to see very slowly more and more sinister sides to him, like in a horror film, when you're not sure, like who you're not sure if they're like they've been taken over by the the entity or the demon or not. And then you slowly start to see hints and layers. Um, and it was kind of like that. It was super creepy. And then basically it all culminates in this um scene where we find out actually how powerful he is, where he's changing, he's just messing with Harry in like a super sinister way, is being extremely abusive. He turns Kim super old, and then um because he hasn't been old.
SPEAKER_02It turns him into a baby, a literal baby.
SPEAKER_04And I'm so curious to see like what Kim was able to like retain a memory of being, like how it affected his memory or perception of the world.
SPEAKER_03We don't Harry doesn't really talk about that, but he does seem well traumatized by the whole thing. I love that you mention how like the the sinisterness of the clown just eventually shows because it feels like he, the clown and the aliens that have been living in here for years have kind of reached this stasis, this like agreement of how things can be. And as soon as Harry and Bellana come in come in, it like stirs things up, and the clown has to like has to like beat him into submission so that they will not um you screw up his this world that he has created and this fear that he lives on.
SPEAKER_04I think the clown character is actually really giddy because he feeds off of the friction in a way. He feeds off of the opportunity to abuse. They're invigorated by it. They enjoy that. I mean, to a point when when they lose, they don't like that. But they like the in-between state where they feel like they have the ability to not only be in control, but show how much uh control they have.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah. And obviously the aliens that had been there for years had already kind of accepted this level of control. So he got to show new people all over again how all powerful he was. And yeah, I think he was elated by it. Yeah. Yeah. It was very scary. We did I didn't know what was gonna happen. I was like, this clown can do whatever the hell he wants. I don't see how we get out of this. And that's why it was super relieving when the doctor pops in. Um, because I was like, oh, finally, this is someone that like the clown maybe can't hurt.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And also one of my doctor seems at this point, I think it was at this point, the doctor um starts to try and negotiate with the clown. And he says that the people on Voyager are willing to create an artificial brain for him. Uh, because this guy basically lives on the brain waves of the people that are hooked up to this system. He needs a brain in order to even exist, which is one of the reasons he doesn't want people to leave. So they're like, hey, you if you let these guys go, we'll give you an artificial brain. Um, but the clown says no, absolutely not. And that would not be the same. And so we're kind of back at the drawing board with like, how do we get how do we get Harry and the aliens out of here? Or is he stuck there forever?
SPEAKER_04He thinks it's a lie. Why would I, why would I do that when I have the real thing to play with? And he talks to Beorsa, and she's super familiar with how all of this works. And she says that if you recalibrate the the relays, uh I love how often relays are talked about in Voyager. It's like a relay. Um, it's like the uh pattern buffers in Geordie in Next Gen. Everything has a pattern buffer. Um and oh, maybe if we did this, it would work. Um and he's still against it, basically. Yeah. They're not winning any argument with him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, why I don't know why he would take this option. He doesn't care about the livelihood of these people. But yes, the the female alien does mention specifically optonic pathways. And Belana picks up on that because she's like, that's not related to the brain at all. So it doesn't make sense that she was saying that. So there has to be another reason that she brought that specifically up. And she starts to theorize that they could interrupt those pathways to slowly disassemble the environment that the clown has created piece by piece. And this is their new plan, basically.
SPEAKER_04I think in the end, they basically plan on hacking this whole thing. Janeway eventually is like, I'm gonna, I know I'm like probably skipping stuff, but I remember her saying, I'm gonna let myself, I'm gonna hook myself up, get in, and I will be like, I'll take the place of everyone else.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'll offer my brain in exchange for all of the rest of them.
SPEAKER_04And he's like giddy about it. He's like, oh my God, I have to have your brain.
SPEAKER_03They're like, totally. Because he he knows Jane Way through Bologna and Harry's brains and like what she means to them and how they've kind of almost put her on a pedestal. And so he is just like, This, yeah, he wants her brain. He wants to keep her all to himself. That's very exciting for him. Um they yeah, they try a few other negotiation methods, like the doctor pops in once more and is like, well, we'll also give you a cloaking device. Like that here's all these things we can do for you. But yeah, the clan's having a great time the way things are. He doesn't, he doesn't want to change anything. And he continues to just terrorize Harry and these three aliens. And Harry is starting to repeat like the only thing you have to fear is fear itself over and over again. And I'm like, oh no, Harry's cracking.
SPEAKER_04He's aware that he's saying this over and over again, but he can't stop like the expression on his face is like, this is super weird.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um because he's cracking. It's it's terrifying.
SPEAKER_04Um I think I remember what happens is they uh upload a digital version of Jane Wade, not her actual Yeah, at the very end, that's how they do that.
SPEAKER_03And they don't like, they don't tell the audience this, which I think is really fun. They're just kind of like, oh, Jane Way has a plan. And she doesn't reveal it until like the very end of how they were able to make this happen. I feel like they've done that in a few episodes, and I really enjoy it because you're just like, oh, you're gonna find out. Yeah, they just want attention and excitement. There's something cool and smart that they did. Um, Balana is like manually hacking, I guess, this basically the contraption that they have. She's in there finding all these pathways and like removing them or turning them off one by one, and there's a ton of them. And um at some point, the we start to see things disappear inside of this simulation while we're seeing the clown torture people.
SPEAKER_04And we we see ca whole characters and things off the wall and like furniture disappearing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Meanwhile, the the doctor is trying to to be a distraction so that the clown doesn't notice this. Um but he I believe he does notice and he realizes that the woman that mentioned those pathways was giving them instruction and he kills her. He kills her.
SPEAKER_04I was like, did he put her in the he brings her over to the guillotine, they cut off her head, and she dies in real life.
SPEAKER_03And she dies in real life, yeah. They're they're like monitoring, they're like, oh, the norepinephrine levels are rising, something bad's happening, and then and then she's just dead. Just dead.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's like when you um if you die in inception, right? You die in real life. In real life. So he he's super sus now. And um I'm not sure how they got him to believe the Janeway ruse.
SPEAKER_03So once once they killed that alien, Janeway is like, stop everything, restore the entire program. So basically uh it undoes all of the work that Bellana had done manually. And I was very frustrated. I was like, oh my gosh, she was so close to being done. But we panicked and backed off because someone died, which is unfortunate. And then Janeway starts to like kind of analyze the clown as as fear. She starts to like think about him as this personified emotion and how and she's trying to like figure him out, and and she says, Isn't there more to fear than simply a demand to exist? What does fear seek? And that's where she starts building this like idea of what they're gonna do. And that okay, and then the doctor goes back in and gives fear an ultimatum. They and uh offers them, offers him Jingwei. And the the clown is super indignant, does not like that he's been he's been given one minute to agree to this ultimatum or not. And he obviously really wants this, but is just pissed off that someone is able to even wield this kind of power over him. And this is that's to me, that frustration that he was showing felt very cute. But he accepts.
SPEAKER_04That's fair, and it's so well portrayed, right? I think it's so interesting that they took the okay, this clown is fear itself. That's the routine or program that um he has become. He's basically appeared, and we get it early on in the episode, but it's not so well defined that all these people were so afraid after what was happening and why they're being put in a deep freeze and what was gonna happen to them and everyone else. Yeah. Um so much fear, and this runaway routine kind of built everything around that. And yeah, um, I think the doctor and Janeway working together to understand this program and try and decide the best way to defeat it was kind of genius. It was a huge gamble. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Huge. I mean the way that they kind of tricked him was that once someone enters this system and the stasis system, there are like a couple minutes before he gets full access to their brain. So they were able to put her in as like a virtual being, and he didn't notice that he didn't have access because he knew it was gonna take a while.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And they have this discussion that is like haunting almost. It's like it's like Jane We is talking to her fear. And I thought it was very poetic. She says that she has known fear, she knows it's helpful, but she's learned to trust fear because it guides her.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they once they get Jane Way, the the virtual version, the the hologram version of Jane Way, into that program with the clown, everyone else is ejected, and yeah, the whole circus is gone too. It's just like this set, basically. Uh it's kind of Shakespearean. You have this like empty set and the two protagonists. It's haunting. Yeah. Um, the whole time they're talking, the light is dimming, basically. And um he's starting to the clown is starting to get nervous because he can't sense her thoughts um or her presence and is starting to realize what might be happening. And Janeway is like talking about how um how she believes that um because he is the realization of of fear um or the representation of fear, um, he basically exists to be defeated, that he himself is afraid, and uh in the end, likely wants to be um destroyed. And as she's talking, the lights get dimmer and dimmer and dimmer, and he gets more and more distraught looking and almost smaller, like he no longer has any control. Shrinking. Yeah. Um, and then he says, um, in like this super timid voice, he says, um, he says, I I am afraid, and it's the camera like zooms in on Janeway's face, and and it's in like full shadow, and she's like, and then he just disappears. It was like chilling, and that's how it ends.
SPEAKER_03It was incredible. Uh, she was so badass in all of this, and her like mental and emotional composure when she was in that space was amazing. I had a lot of respect for her. I feel like we've seen a few episodes since then, actually, where she has not had quite that level of composure. So this was really eloquent. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was fantastic. And and now looking back on it, I'm just like, that was pure art. That whole that whole episode.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I feel like this episode would not be nearly as good without the actor um that was playing the clown.
SPEAKER_03Well, not just the act, apparently, they had some action a handful of actual Cirque du Soleil artists were in the background there. So like the whole yeah, the whole circus that we saw. Oh, that's those were actual professional circus artists that they brought in for this. I think that's a good idea. The way that they approach Yeah, the way they approached this from the Delta Flyers was like this this episode was done completely different from any other that they had done. It was so complex that they had more rehearsals than they ever did before. It was um, they really emphasized the sense of like discont discontinuity. Is that a word? It was discontinuity. It is a word. Is that is that the right word? It's the it's the word I meant to use. Uh so yeah, it it stands on its own, I feel like, it as an episode.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, really. It really is Shakespearean. It feels like a a a performance. It feels like it has a lot of metaphor built into it, and super well written, super well acted, really creative, very dark at the end, um, but like optimistic. And I can see where you get some of the cue energy, uh, which makes sense. John Belancy is also like a Shakespearean trained Juilliard trained actor.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Similar acting styles. Right. I did write in my notes about this episode that the clown acts very Q-ish.
SPEAKER_04I disagree. You would. He's like a demon that was brought into existence and has to feed.
SPEAKER_03I think that his his control of this space and the way he was kind of all powerful in it reminded me of Q. I do wonder because the clown was basically a manifestation of his victim's fear. I don't know that he's actually even capable of those deeper emotions that Q is, maybe.
SPEAKER_04Um, but the Yeah, he doesn't have the experience, the lived experience, I guess.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and he's not yeah, no, that's a good way to put it, because he's only ever experienced this world that he's in. But um What was I gonna say about I think that he he does delight in letting people know that they are helpless. And I don't know that Q delights in that, but he did make me feel helpless. So the trauma there is has been I have been triggered. Basically, by the cloud.
SPEAKER_04Terry has a lot of Q trauma.
SPEAKER_03And this brought it up for me. I thought babies were gonna invite people into the debate of Q or no Q, to Q or not to Q.
SPEAKER_04We could have like a a segment just on the the Q quandary. We could uh could be a separate podcast. We could have a whole podcast and just talk about Q. That would be it. That would literally be all we did.
SPEAKER_03It sounds like that would make you very happy. I think you would enjoy that a lot. Yeah, probably. I wanna have you seen the movie Eight and a Half? Um Seems pretty obscure, but apparently it influenced a lot of the scenes and the kind of general vibe of this episode. I was curious because I'd really have seen every movie ever. It's a 1963 Italian film. And it's like a little bit. But it won a lot of awards. I'm actually kind of curious about watching it now.
SPEAKER_04So what about this film influence?
SPEAKER_03The well the director of it was kind of idolized by the director that did this episode. But also the idea of just absolute absurdity and letting the audience know that what they're viewing is kind of not reality. Was super emphasized in that movie, but yeah, I'd be interested to watch it and see if you can pick out what the similarities are.
SPEAKER_04I'm down to watch this. It's for be. It it looks it looks good. I'm reading about it in a little mild. Yeah, a famous Italian film director suffering from director's block um retreats into his thoughts, which often revolve around different themes. It's like many different themes. That's super interesting. And it's like an early experimental film.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it looks very experimental. And I like okay, yes. This episode felt experimental, especially for Star Trek. It was just kind of out there, and I loved it. Which I don't think I said I loved it when we first started recording because I was so disturbed.
SPEAKER_04But now in hindsight, I think I have more of an appreciation of it too. I think I did enjoy it though. It was just insane. Such an insane concept and so creepy. Right?
SPEAKER_03Definitely did not expect the creep factor and the just weird factor that we got hit with in this episode.
SPEAKER_04No, not at all. It was out of the blue. Um, which I like. I like episodes like that. So it's weird uh talking about the next episode. Um because we've already watched it. God, that's crazy. I feel like we did record this though. Are you sure the next recording isn't like I look for um because the next episode is is Tuvix.
SPEAKER_03Interesting. Yeah, I do remember us talking about Tuvix before watching it.
SPEAKER_04Uh, so our next episode is Tuvix, which was an absolutely insane episode everyone knows about, and we're excited to talk about it next week on the Voicast. Bye.